Misogyny At It's Finest

Last weekend I posted an article that asked the question: Why do so many men hate women?  Why did I do this?  I had begun chronicling certain trends that bothered me.  I noted (as mentioned in my original post at dKos) that essays decrying violence towards women seemed plagued by commenter’s that, frankly, appeared more at home in the ‘freeper’ universe.  Not exclusively here, mind you – but encompassing many sites across the blogasphere.  It was also much more likely for women rather than men to be alluded to in derogatory sexual terms; perhaps as some sort of tool employed to silence or derail any discussion.  This tendency towards anger, irritation, or outright dismissal, was especially virulent where the gender of the blogger was readily apparent, though the subject alone did seem to draw certain types out of the woodwork.  Well!  The commentary this diary received was troubling.  Certain posts smacked of a misogynistic bent that seemed to be at odds with liberality in general and its primary attribute of inclusion.  *I have listed some of those opinions below – minus any identifying data.  The issue of violence toward women goes far beyond one person’s individual view of the world and its environs.  Reducing it to a ‘man vs. woman’ canard ignores my original text, and marginalizes both subject and gender.

Here are some of the remarks:

1. So, if I tend to fall on the side of "the comments those men left (aside from the trolls who were probably trying to stir the pot) reflected an angry reaction to a systemic injustice," I hope you will excuse me...

My own g/f and I have talked about this and agree that this is a sticky legal point...

As for the original post, I have nothing to say...I'm no psychologist and so have no opinions about "The Fat Lady Sings" being mental or not...I'm no lawyer and so have no opinions about the legality of rape law...I'm no woman and have no opinions about the point of view of a woman.

All I can tell you is that I DO feel the anger that froths up in their comments when I see someone telling me "All Men Hate Women" because there are rapists..and that, in order to NOT be a "Man Who Hates Women," I need to verbally cut off my prick and flambe' it in public in a symbol of self-hating masochism to make my beliefs and better nature clear.

2. Your "evidence" for your massive man-hating generalization seems to be specific cases.  There are always double standards.  Let's put it this way - the other night I gave my girlfriend a massage, put rose-petals on the bed and fed her truffles.  This was a tuesday night.  Diary on that, man-hater - the more I think about the generalized vitriol in your piece, the angrier I get... wait, maybe that's why some guy's are angry...

3. The problem isn't that men hate women, or that women hate men...and please, don't deny it, it's true, and why should women get any, I repeat ANY special privilege on that issue?  WHY?   Why is it okay for women for be cruel, vicious, whiny, spoiled, flippant, rude, disrespectful, assinine, and disrespectful and for men not to be?  Oh, because women are weaker?  Because they endure so much abuse?   Because they have to have children?   Oh boo-hoo-hoo......

4. I'm well aware that there are men a tiny handful of men out there who do hate women as you describe, but in my life I have much more frequently encountered that tiny handful of women out there who simply hate men (hardcore radical feminists or mentally ill, it's often hard to tell).

And then the comments took a turn for the worst:

5. As to males and violence:  IMHO, as much as anything else, males express frustration by acting out physically.  This may manifest as hitting or rape, among other ways.  Women - in my experience - express frustration verbally or underhandedly.

Mostly people act out because they simply do not know how to deal with certain situations well.  These are actions that are usually self-defeating or self-damaging (as well as being damaging to the recipients of such actions), but we do them anyway.  It is, therefore, a form of immaturity.

Understand this, though: Physical acting out is not the only way people damage the ones around them.  Game-playing, manipulation, passive-aggressive behaviour - these all damage the recipients, too, but they are not currently labeled as criminal actions.  In our civilization, these are seen - erroneously, IMHO - as within acceptable means of interaction.  I have seen a lot of damage to people - men, mostly - from such behaviours, but society just tells these victims to suck it up and be a man about it.

Some men simply cannot deal with passive-aggressive partners forever, without at some point lashing out one way or another, and too often it is physically.  Could they handle it another way?  One would THINK so, but something in our society (as respects their own idea of acceptable male behaviour) prevents them from finding a less dangerous way to fight back, at least before the cork blows.  Most often, IMHO, the men simply give up and tune out, choosing alienation to violence; these DO hear society's dictates about physical abuse and opt to not break the law.

What I am saying here (not about rape) is that SOME of the physical actions against women are relationship failures on the part of BOTH parties, wherein the abusive behaviour by the women is acceptable (non-criminal) but the abusive behaviour by the men is seen as criminal.

Women have an advantage in this way, that their form of striking out is not criminalized.  So far.  And I am sure it would be a LONG time before that changes, if ever.

It sounds like you are trying to find reasons to hate men.  It sounds like your posting of this diary is a plea, asking someone to talk you out of that.  I would hope you find such an answer here.  All I personally can say to you is this: If you dwell on that side of men all the time, you will attract that kind of man into your world.  That is a recipe for disaster.  You are free to do so, but WHY would you do that to yourself?

This one I am including in its entirety.  The posters hatred and contempt for women practically screams out:

6. Diarist, do you actually enjoy being a child?  Is it your life-long goal to never grow up?.   Were you that spoiled during adolescence, and are you really that adamant and dedicated to continue stomping your hooves for the rest of your adult life?

Here's the truth (and it will set you free):  women are no more and no less "special" and no more deserving of "special" rights, privileges, and deference than any other type of human beings on this planet, and surprise! that includes men. 

YOU, my dear, are actually the hugest part of the problem.  It's your attitude, baby.  You've watched w-a-a-a-a-y too much TV and have overdosed on the koolaid.  Here, this is step 1 in the rehab program, repeat after me:

"I AM NO MORE OR LESS SPECIAL THAN ANYONE ELSE ON THIS PLANET, PERIOD."

Say it fifty times a day, every day, at sun-up, sundown, when you rise, your last words before you sleep.   Face the east, the west, whatever direction you're most comfortable with.  Bonus points if you say it while staring at yourself in a mirror.   Try looking at yourself in the eye while doing it.  Try seeing yourself for who and what you really are.  Great therapy, and really cheap, to boot!

Oh wait, I hear you say (and lots of others, not to worry, you're not alone on that sinking ship):
of course I'm special, I'm very special, and because I am, I deserve/demand/require that I be treated especially different....

Okay, fine.   That's the popular psycho-babble that's all the rage these days (years, decades, millenia, etc.).  Great.  So if it's okay for you to feel that way, then fairness (you're all for fairness, aren't you?) seems to require that you accept that me, her, him, and all the other "thems" in the world can feel that way (and act according to such an attitude) also, right?

Wonderful!   So if you're special, too, then I'm special, very special, also......so I too deserve/require/demand that I be treated (and have the right, morally and legally) especially different:

• I can be above the law when it suits me.

• I can take advantage of the weaker (economically, physically, politically, etc.) when it's to my benefit.

• Fill in the blanks here, the list goes on forever.....

and ever and ever and ever, Amen, once you start down that thought path of "I'm special, more special....".   It's the ultimate slippery slope, and it has no end.  Like I said earlier, go turn on the TV, read the newspaper, tune in to almost any religious, economic, or political  programming or speechmaking: the words will surely be different, but the baseline message is always the same:  "I'm (we) more special than "them"......

Divide and conquer.   You seem to feel strongly about your perceived role as and the disadvantages of being on the short end of the stick, of being the "conquered".  So you'd rather be the ruler?   Imitate the tyrants?   Engage in that life-and-death battle against the rest of the world and against each other?   It all starts with those two little words:  I'm special.

I can’t even begin to tell you what I think of such female-centric derogations.   Please read the entirety of the original, if you are interested in the dialectic en toto.  You will see that there were a number of posts that attempted to address the subject rationally; their comments clearly intended to move the discussion forward.  I want to thank those posters.  Unfortunately, there were also too many people who seemed more interested in insults, as opposed to any substantive exchanges of opinion.  As for me - I am still trying to identify the source of all this strum und drang.  Speculation, I will leave up to the reader; though understanding the whys and wherefores of this disparagement was my original intent.  If you take the time to read what I actually said and am saying, you will note I do not tar every male with the same brush.  My examination of gender and blogging is not, and has never been anti-male.  And I will not allow myself to be drawn into that ring of explanations so many misogynists use to try and side-track anyone who addresses women’s issues.  Of course there are many men who do not try and silence women – and of course I know this.  I’ve had this conversation with friends – with men (both gay and straight) who never felt the need to prove their masculinity through aggression, and have helped me understand the world through their eyes.  Fruitful debate liberally laced with humor and marked by candor – I have always been truly blessed by the people in my life.  And I have lived through much worse then the braying of a few donkeys who feel the need to try and kick through any examination of their own warped views.  Go for it, boys; you don’t frighten me, and you won’t silence me either.  I started out my career as an actor.  Reviews, such as they are, are (at times) invidious; and therefore easily dismissed.

You see - I win my battles - and I am a survivor.  I lived, where two of my siblings did not.  I not only survived the violence done to me when young; I came out of the experience adamantly opposed to violence in general, and without any specific animus for the gender that inflicted it.  When I shuffle off this mortal coil, my epitaph will read: This person never intentionally harmed any living creature.  Can you in all truth say the same?  I have always stood firm when confronted with injustice.  I marched with Chavez in support of migrant workers.  I might have been a kid, and gone with the mother of a school chum, but I knew it was the right thing to do, so I did it.  When I was in high school, and found out the college prep classes excluded females, I raised holy hell.  I was the only girl there the first year, but that class was full of college bound women two years later.  When in college I was refused work because that particular company ‘didn’t hire females’.  Well I got hired – and at the exact same salary as the guys, thank you very much.  I made sure of it.  When a friend was assaulted by the man she lived with, I stood up to him as she lay on the pavement, her arm broken in two places – and refused to back down.  After the murder of Milk and Moscone, I marched arm in arm with thousands of others who refused to allow prejudice and hatred to win the day.  I have always put my money where my mouth is – if I believe, I do.  Again – can those of you who so cavalierly and snarkily dismissed my question say the same?

I know I have opened up this can of worms yet again.  Perhaps this time it can be discussed sans the gender-specific cat calls.   So here we are.  This subject goes way beyond a basic discussion of civility or manners.  I think we have to really address sexism as a root cause - female to male as well – before (as so succinctly put by one of my fellow bloggers), women feel the need to reassess their safety as they walk down the street.  Women's rights, (and gay rights, and minority rights in general) are regularly being dismissed or ignored; and I think it shameful.  Even worse is tolerance of violence – any kind of violence; and if you remain silent, you are indeed advocating a kind of tolerance.  As one poster pointed out (at Booman Tribune) – why is the violation of a child considered the lesser crime of molestation, instead of the rape it truly is?  So attack me and this issue all you like; but be aware if it is not dealt with honestly and soon, perhaps your sister or your daughter might be forced to reckon with the consequences.  Think that a ludicrous statement?  Do you really want to wait till something rears up and slaps you in the face before you address it?

*The examples cited here are culled directly from dKos responses.

***Addendum - I had to remove a comment due to content. Advocating violence will get you banned from this site.

Comments

[sb_gypsy]

Molestation is a LESSER crime???? wtf, I would think they would slam *them* away and loose the key! I have no idea why some men hate women, any more than I know why some people hate *different* (black, brown, purple) people.

It all seems to stem from insecurity. The idea that if you are bigger, richer, or more beautiful than someone(anyone) else, then you are *better* than them.
So, to be on top, they have to have someone under them. That anyone would actively put the boot on the neck of another individual in order to *be* on top, and so to feel good about themselves, is the perversion. Acting out violence in this scenario is illegal, many other actions are just as perverted, yet legal. Men as well as women are fluent in those legal perversions of society. To ascribe mostly legal actions to women, and mostly violent actions to men is not respecting a man's ability to restrain himself.(where have we heard that before??) It speaks volumes about the guy that did it, and more volumes about our "terminator" culture.

And here I loop back to: what are we teaching our kids.... as a culture, as a society, as a family.

[Lily]

Well there's the function of oppression, and then there's the phenomenon of being a person submerged in an oppressive environment whereby they often internalize negativity about their own.
I think about some of these writings and ideas in social policy literature as they pertain to how women interact with one another and the ways that men feel compelled to perpetuate the status quo.
I think this is an excellent blog, by the way. I must admit to feeling a bit overwhelmed at Daily Kos because the contributors and comments are so many. While its admittedly great stuff and the issue is with ME, not KOS, I guess I like small intimate dinner parties and small intimate blogs! Nostly for the same reasons. The offderings at Kos seem to fuel my gluttony for topics and POOF another hour gone! Its too much of a mental buffet!

[Mary]

Violence against women is not an issue isolated to one continent, one religious belief, one government. It is a world-wide plague.
http://web.amnesty.org/actforwomen/index-eng
I donate to this cause in hopes that one day, we won't have to wonder why. As for the guy who buys truffles and sprinkles rose petals or the one who suffers from manipulation, what the hell does that have to do with the question?

[Polly Jones]

Wow...it was painful to read he comments at DKos.

I'm writing papers right now on violence against women, so I am finding the topic overwhelming a bit.

It would nice to be able to talk about things without being attacked...

[rivermomma]

But see thats the thing: we cannot buy into the 'competitive" mindset of having to win at the expense of dialogue. That is what people do when they take on others, attack, their aim is not to understand and hear but to go for the throat to show some sort of prowess.
I am involved in an amazing study group on Non Violent Communication, attempting to relearn my patterns of interacting because I see that I fall into this pattern too..of forgetting the need to hear and becoming consumed by being right.
I notice that where we look for sisterhood, we often find cattiness. When we try to talk about ideas, it becomes a debate, and often deterioriates into name calling and insults because people do not derive power from their facts but rather they seek to derive power from hurting the other. It a lot of bullshit.

[Mark Foxwell]

Wow. I don't have a long time to read these posts (I'm reading a sample of all the ones nominated for a Koufax and that's how I wound up here--though I've checked in on your blog before FL, and it is a good one.) So I stopped reading the rants your misogynist respondants left, though I'm sure it would be an edifying if mortifying task if I had the time. They lost me when they started whining about how you were ranting against "all" men "just because some men blah blah blah..." when in reality you never said "all" men anyway. You said "why so many?" and in my reckoning just one of these bozos is too many. Let me get this straight--men are from Mars and so a smack across a woman's jaws is equivalent behavior to a Venusian woman's "passive-agression?" (I'm afraid I'm not to clear on what "passive-aggression" is supposed to be anyway though I've seen a funny short film about a passive-aggressive gunslinger--he does stuff like agree to meet Dirty Dave at high noon and then doesn't show up....) Whiskey. Tango. Foxtrot?!

Violence is violence, and expressing annoyance is expressing annoyance; the latter is a human right and you avoid it by either pleasing the other person or staying away from them; the former is a violation of human rights and generally speaking its perpetrators come looking for their victims.

I have had my own share of screwed-up, patriarchial male entitlement I've expressed as a result of my upbringing and background; all I can say now is I'm sorry and I understand why people didn't like me so much that way and I'm glad I've learned better--but even then, I knew there were limits. There might be half=assed explanations for violence, but never excuses that made it OK. God, what a sick society we have.

Write on, strong women, keep standing up to bullies, and say what you like about men in general. I know what you mean.

[julia]

Of course. We're a country that oppresses the people with most of the power.

Astonishing that they fight so hard to keep it.

[softdog]

I'm a guy and I was appalled by the equivocation - pretending rape and abuse of women is the same as this mythical jail full of falsely accused men and, more annoying, pointing out men suffer abuse at the hands of men as well, as if this somehow is the fault of women - and deliberate misreading of your opinion - you said many men hate women and they replied "how dare your generalize about all men" before launching into generalized invective. I'm not sure who was worse, the guys who straight up said their hatred was justified or those who said they didn't hate women but were enraged by something "wrong" you said.

Then there's that guy who said yes, hatred is wrong and he was so saintly for not being hateful despite being molested by a baby sitter when he was young which he mentioned only to show how open he really is, and not to engage in the typical "don't leave men out of this rape discussion", just as I'm sure he mentioned ages (he was 9, she was 16) only to emphasize pain and not to erotocize it. And monkeys will fly out of my butt.

And let's not get into the final poster, who did the usual, "I don't hate women, I just think no one should get special treatment, male or female." and then dared to quote Vonnegut.

Having observed bullies (physical and netwise) up close, the guys who hate women are part of the group of guys who cannot admit to flaws. If they feel rage and hatred, then it must be right and someone else must be to blame. Women are a very convenient someoen. God forbid these guys realize it is possible to feel rage or anxiety without it being someone else's fault. Nor can they both deal with their rage and admit it's unjustified at the same time. These guys have such fragile egos admitting a feeling can be both valid yet wrong would shatter them and force to face all their wrongs. Which drives them to even more rage. This sort of never wrong anger is largely directed at gays, minorities and women, but they can also focus it on a subset of guys (like nerds or another football team).

Men will say violent fury is just part of being a man and I'd say bullshit. Every human feels anxiety, fight or flight and anger. And yet many people, male and female, manage to work through this without going postal or posting like a troll.

I can understand getting really mad and saying mean things in the heat of the moment. But this deeply felt hatred is a mystery.

As a poster on Daily Kos said: There are some men out there harboring this visceral antipathy, if not outright hatred, for women and, seemingly, much of what they stand for. There is no explanation except they keep getting away with it so they keep doing it.

[the bewilderness]

Most men are bullies. They are taught to be so. I blame the patriarchy.